Ses réponses ne sont pas des réponses totalement à nu étant donné que même face à la thérapeute, il revêt un masque pour garder un confort mutuel dans leur échange.
Contextuellement, cette interview survient lors de sessions thérapeutiques entre Meng et Aster dans un futur imaginaire alors qu'ils sont sur le point de divorcer et font le point sur leurs problèmes respectifs. C'est là que leur thérapeute décèle en Meng une personnalité psychopathique et décide d'un entretien plus poussé, plus ciblé sur lui-même, pour comprendre son fonctionnement et ses motivations afin de voir comprendre comment il fonctionne, quelles sont ses attentes et ses objectifs.
Toute l'interview est en anglais car j'ai trouvé répondre dans cette langue plus confortable et réaliste considérant qu'il s'exprime en anglais et de fait, je ne l'ai pas traduite en Français.
Therapist: How long have you and Aster been together?
Meng: Seven years now.
Therapist: What makes you choose to stay in a relationship when you have no emotions for her per se?
Meng: I do have emotions. I do not believe we share the same ones, but I still have some. She entertains me and stimulates me positively, in a way that no other can do. She is the opposite of me and helps me understand things that are usually out of reach about feelings and human nature. We are a good team most of the time. She isn't materialistic and isn't loyal because she needs things I have but because of me and me alone. She is really in love with me.
Therapist: Why does it matter that she really loves you?
Meng: Love makes people more trustworthy. If they truly love something they will want to protect it and not betray it. Thus, I trust her more than anyone else. I believe she would do anything to protect me as long as I make her happy. She is the person I would entrust my wealth to because I know she wouldn't use it for her own benefits. She couldn't care less about that. When you make decisions in life, when you entrust something that you value to someone else, isn't it better to have that person trusting you entirely and able to do anything for you? What's better than someone who doesn't have any interest in betraying you? I even think she could be capable of killing for me. That's how devoted she is to me. And she knows I would kill for her—I'm sure she knows. This is manipulation to some extent, but I prefer to look at it as mutual benefits.
Therapist: Are you faithful to her?
Meng: Yes, I am faithful. I am very flirtatious with women—which annoys her significantly even though she knows I have always been this way, even before she knew me. She loves that other people find me attractive, but at the same time it makes her insecure. She does hate groupies and fangirls. I do receive sometimes hot pictures and I have no shame about it and talk to her about it. Some are actually good ones and I do tell her if I wasn't married and faithful I would fuck them.
Therapist: Can you tell me about her reaction?
Meng: She gets easily emotional when it comes to other women flirting with me. I know she had a rough past with men being unfaithful to her and making her doubt her worth. I remember the one time when our relationship wasn't clear yet and she openly provoked two women during a party because they were flirting with me. I wouldn't have fucked them but just her reaction made it clear she cannot stand this. She's jealous. I don't like it. I actually hate it and I avoid showing my interest in other women in front of her to avoid conflicts and jealousy from her side. My thoughts are enough to satisfy me and I wouldn't cheat on her, but I keep it for myself.
Therapist: Why not cheat all the time?
Meng: Actually why cheat all the time? I don't see the point. I would not only lose Aster, but also my home, my kids, it would end up in a divorce, loss of trust from her side and it would actually ruin everything I worked for. I don't see anything smart in cheating. I can just go masturbate, or have sex with Aster.
Therapist: What do you think of this statement:
"For psychopaths there are no persons, only things. Thus they choose their significant others like a person would choose a jacket."Meng: Well, I actually think it describes me well. There isn't one single relationship that I do not chose myself like I would chose which jacket suits me well on the day itself. Not that I am the only one doing it, right? It became more and more common throughout the years, people just talking and keeping in touch with the ones benefiting them the most. I am not any different. I am not going to waste my time and energy on people who I believe are worthless to my existence. I got better things to do than deal with them.
Therapist: So then why do you choose to invest in the relationship?
Meng: Mutual benefits. She gets great sex, affection, compassion, a support, someone who can protect her and think about her well-being, and she gives me children, love, devotion, better understanding and stimulates me on different things. She's capable of talking about everything and even when fighting we get something interesting out of it. She's great to have sex with, too. She's open minded and is willing to try new things. I'm not bored with her, which has always been my biggest problem with women. I would let her stab me during sex I know she wouldn't kill me—she would study hard on the subject to make sure I get the most pleasure out of it. The only downside with her is she's too easily scared and unstable sometimes it's a pain in the ass to understand what is wrong with her. She has a tendency to run away when things are too difficult to handle and it pisses me off.
Therapist: Let's talk about circle again...there is no circle, just people that you allow into your life in varying degrees, is that right?
Meng: She is one of the people I am closest to.
Therapist: Does she mean more than your mom to you?
Meng: I am equally close to them, however I obviously don't do same things with my mother and my wife. They both bring different things into my life others cannot give me.
Therapist: Would you say that you are attached to Aster? I mean it certainly looks like attachment—you are in a relationship, you take care of her, you are there for each other…
Meng: What does it even mean? Like, attached how?
Therapist: Attached...can mean devoted to...you seem pretty devoted. So would you say you attached?
Meng: I guess so, sort of. But I think I am more attached to the benefits of the relationship than the relationship itself. The moment those benefits are gone, I do not see the point of forcing myself to keep this relationship. Isn't that normal though? People keep telling you to ditch relationships that are toxic. Things that are pointless are a waste of time. And as I said, I am not willing to waste my time and energy on useless relationships.
Therapist: So how do you think that you would react to Aster dying?
Meng: I would be pissed. Annoyed. Depending how it happens, why it happens, I could get revenge. Not for her, but for myself because her loss discomforts me and I cannot replace her that easily. If it was that easy to replace her, I would probably not be married to her.
Therapist: What does love look like to you?
Meng: I have no clue. This is a question that doesn't make any sense to me. But I guess you could call it a good teamwork of people helping each other because they get benefits from it. Finding someone who could help you walk if you go blind or some shit like that.
Therapist: So what does falling in love feel like for you?
Meng: I don't recall having experienced such emotion. For me it was just that she was doing so many things for me and still managing to keep me happy by just being her. It didn't happen suddenly and it was built over time through different experiences. She was there in a way that no one was and could understand me even though we are completely different. Hence we fit pretty well I guess.
Therapist: Do you feel the newness of a relationship where it is more fun, or is it the same all the way through?
Meng: Sort of. I mean, it's always interesting peeling a new onion. Aster got many layers and she keeps me out of boredom very easily. The moment it gets boring it is very easy to find interesting things to do and start anew. Even this whole situation is a new thing.
Therapist: So why do you think she chooses to be with a psychopath as a life partner?
Meng: Good question, I have thought about it too. Maybe she wouldn't have if she knew when we started dating. I always knew I was different and it came up to me quite easily I was a psychopath with very high narcissism and I mask off this side of me to accomodate everyone, even myself. Even though I am a psychopath, I am still a nice guy. It's just when we present things as people do it comes to sound 'horrible', or cruel. Not all psychopath are like Hannibal Lecter going on a rampage to kill people. I have no interest in that. On the other hand I can say with absolute certainty that no one has showed her the amount of compassion and affection I have. I do it because she makes it worth the while and I get something in return. Knowing her mental state though, I think she could be seriously considering cutting off ties with me now she's aware of what I am.
Therapist: How masked are you with her?
Meng: All the time. She wasn't aware of me being a psychopath until your told her and I am not thankful for that—fuck you, by the way. Now she has to figure out which she prefers. Though she would have wished the mask was the truth but now I have been exposed, I am waiting for her to tell me what she wants.
Therapist: Do you think she would ask you to mask?
Meng: Probably. A comfortable lie is more bearable than the ugly truth. I am of that minority scaring the shit out of people because they cannot understand why we are the way we are.
Therapist: How much does she know about your past, the violence we talked about from your past?
Meng: She knows silhouettes of it. We never talked about these things before. I just know my mother randomly talked about it but it never meant anything up until now. Now I think everything will look more suspicious if not obvious to her—to them, if my mother discovers what I am as well.
Therapist: What do you feel about this statement?
"Leaving is not an option I give to myself. If leaving isn't an option, then figuring out how to work within the relationship is what has to happen".Meng: Leaving is always an option if that's what makes the most sense. If it does not make sense, then I don't see why leaving is the right choice. There's a lesson to learn in everything that happens and that includes difficult situations. I tend to be curious about how to solve issues.
Therapist: Do you put effort into your relationship?
Meng: Well, yes. If I wasn't willing to do it I wouldn't engage in a relationship at all and would go back to my old self fucking a different girl every single night because I can't be bothered to remember their face or name. Relationships are easy if you use your head sometimes and just do shit and adapt to the situation. Everything is what you make it out to be.
Therapist: What do you think she gets out of the relationship?
Meng: As I said before , she gets great sex, affection, compassion, a support, someone who can protect her and think about her well-being. She also gets stability, a person who accepts her for who she is without judging her, a person who helps her with all the things she struggle with. Someone who is aware of her problems and is still willing to be by her side despite difficulties. She gets a lot. Probably more than myself in the end because having her is not essential on its own for me to live a confortable life, but I still made the choice to be with her.
Therapist: What is sex like for you?
Meng: It's a source of pleasure, a way of stimulating myself and exploring my limits.
Therapist: So what do you feel about sex?
Meng: I enjoy it the most. This is probably one of the activities stimulating me the most and I get the most pleasure out of it. It has nothing to do with love but the act itself provides a satisfactory feeling.
Therapist: And so how often do you have sex?
Meng: Very often. At least four of five times at week, that's a minima. I easily get frustrated if I am not sexually satisfied. There was weeks in the past I could have around twenty different intercourses within the same week, never with the same woman.
Therapist: And do you have foreplay?
Meng: Yes, not all the time. Depends what kind of sex we are going for but I enjoy foreplay. It gratifying on its own.
Therapist: Why not just use lube, it sounds more efficient?
Meng: I don't like lube. Even for anal sex though I understand its utility.
Therapist: And who initiates sex?
Meng: We both do. We used to initiate both of us but nowadays I am the one initiating it the most. There was time she would refuse me for various reasons, specially during and after pregnancy. I had to masturbate to compensate. Never cheated but the thought did occur quite a few times when I get frustrated too much.
Therapist: What do you find attractive in another person?
Meng: Physical appearance is important for me when it comes to sexual attraction. But other than that, I am more interested in complex minds offering intellectual stimulations.
Therapist: And so what do you find physically appealing?
Meng: Everything about this woman. (
see picture) I like warm colors, specially red that for some reason is sexually stimulating for me, she got nice curves, firm and tanned body, lips that would look good while sucking. She's definitly what I would feel the most attracted to.
Therapist: It surprises me that you find what society finds attractive attractive. In a way it suggests to me that even psychopaths are conditioned. Anything else that is attractive?
Meng: Usually the physical appearance is for sex. I would look at women and picture myself fucking them but depending of what kind of sex I want, I enjoy small talks beforehand—so I don't fuck a brainless woman. If I want to go for the easy route, plenty of women nowadays open their legs to any charming smile and calculated compliments to make them feel like queens. I tend to find disgusting women with high opinion of themselves while flirting with trash men of our society—and considering my position I can tell you a lot of women are simply as trashy as the men they talk to even if they like to think of themselves as godly saviours. I also turn down women giving themselves because they feel depressed or in need for affection. Manipulation can be attractive and serves as great foreplay. If I recognize an intelligent manipulation occurring, it activates a strange form of 'Okay, let's play!', but the person HAS to be physically attractive.
Therapist: What about personality?
Meng: Women who are standing firm on their grounds yet willing to listen to others. When they have a high intelligence I am easily turned on. I like it when they stand out and are black sheeps among the crowds too. People often underestimate those who are different while I find them the most interesting. But I can't be bothered with people I have to drag through life and who are unable to recognize how better I am. I like it when they remind people how great I am and still keep a playful mind with me in order to not have it look like they worship me. It's subtle. If it lacks that playful mind, it makes it look like our relationship is unhealthy and everyone will oppose it. I can't be arsed to fight for that shit.
Therapist: Do you find all of that in Aster? Does she fit her expecations?
Meng: She definitly does. She got a nice body, pretty eyes, hair, bottom, long legs, her lips are amazing and she feels tight. She also got a strong character, high intelligence both logical and emotional though she can get overwhelmed sometimes, but it's okay. She's better now she's with me. I have a positive impact on her and she has a positive on me. Before her physical appearance I first of all got attracted to her mind though we were getting on our nerves mutually. On purpose. But that was part of the play, at least for me. I know she enjoys how cold I can be sometimes as it gives her a solid ground to stand on when she feels weak. She's usually the one dragging me around in different adventures I take part of. So I am never bored. She's surprising. Considering our current situations, it looks like I am the one not meeting her expecations however.
Therapist: What makes you believe that you don't?
Meng: We argue quite a lot when it comes to the kids education and priorities. It mostly starts with me saying something and she interrupts to stop me from going any further. I can see she does not want me to talk or expect specific things about our children whereas I am expecting them to become the best version of themselves, relying on our experience. I do not believe I am wrong by acting this way but she seems to believe otherwise and so does my mother. So I assume I am the one not meeting up her expectations. May it be by my lack of empathy or different priorities, I am not sure.
Therapist: Do you love your children?
Meng: Do I? If I cannot say it for my wife, why would I say it for my children? They are my children. They belong to the future. They are part of the bigger picture I want to build. I want them to fit in what I want in life.
Therapist: Do you think they will be happy this way?
Meng: I don't know. That's not the question I ask myself. They can find happiness in different things but that isn't my priority. But I can teach them how to find pleasure and satisfaction in things they do not enjoy so everything they do becomes positive.
Therapist: Let's talk about your childhood. Can you tell me a significant childhood memory?
Meng: My first years I grew up in a farm. I was in charge of protecting the chickens from stray cats and other predators living in the area. Instead of yelling at them or calling out the dog to scare them away I started to throw stones. At some point I used to kill one chicken to go out in the woods and lure the predators so I could kill them myself. I could sometimes kill up to ten predators within a day during weekends. That was pretty much my only hobby besides crafting things in the backyard.
Therapist: Did your parents know about that?
Meng: No they didn't. I never mentionned it to anyone. They only knew I was throwing stones at predators and I always lied about the number of chickens that were alive. I think my mother had some sort of an idea that I was different because when she planned cooking I was always volunteering to decapitate or skin chickens.
Therapist: Any other memories?
Meng: There are. When I started to go to school I was smaller than all the other kids and they used to make fun of me for that but I didn't care. They would steal my pens and throw them away, rip off pages of my books, call me stinky and push me around. I didn't care at first because I was really unbothered but one day I witnessed them around my farm and the next morning four chickens were missing. When I got back to school the monday after I grabbed the first kid from the four and smashed a rock at the back of his head. I think he got injured quite badly and that was the first time I got expelled from a school. That moment I realized it could have a negative impact on my future and my goals so I avoided showing any violent behaviour afterwards.
Another memory I got is from the earthquake. I was thirteen years old back then and it was a school trip. A lot of people died that day and I could have died too. I remember I was stuck under a building and half of my classmates got crushed by the rocks. But at that moment I remember I was feeling really weird. I wasn't sad, I wasn't panicked, I was just full of questions and I feared for my own life, for the first time. We got out of there after a few hours and my parents were also safe. My father took picture of the city afterwards. Sometimes I still look at these pictures and I remember everything very clearly. I remember some of my classmate lost both of their parents, or an arm or leg. Two of them ended up killing themselves within the next three years as the government's help wasn't sufficient. I thought I could use this event in the future. Helping people so they could give me their support.
Therapist: Do you feel remorse by using this event to your own benefits?
Meng: No. They get better help, better support, a strong voice resonating their thoughts and needs, and I get recognition for the work I've done for them. Mutual benefits, once again. I don't think there is anything bad in that. If it wasn't for me, they wouldn't have all of the support they have now.
Therapist: Can you give me 3 words to describe your childhood?
Meng: 1. Adventurous. 2. Experimental. 3. Interesting.
Therapist: A psychopath's low-functioning and high-functioning is defined by their ability to inhibit impulses. High-functioning affords opportunities that low-functioning will not. Do you think this is true?
Meng: No, I think it's more complex than that but there is a basic validity to it. I think high- and low-functioning is mostly based on how law-abiding you are.
Therapist: The research shows that the average IQ of psychopaths is lower than non-psychopaths—both high- and low-functioning. That said I would suspect that the higher the IQ of the psychopath the more likely they are to be high-functioning?
Meng: I have no take on that, really. Was the sample size large enough to warrant such a conclusion? I am among the most intelligent people I know, if not the most. It is just simply harder to notice psychopath of high intelligent as they tend to understand how to behave in society better than the ones with low intelligence. Like, it's the same for everyone, I would say.
Therapist: Do you feel that you have a good command of your impulses?
Meng: I do. This is why up to this day I haven't had any incident since I attacked that boy with a stone at school. I know how to keep myself cool and think rationally. I don't think anyone wants to know me when I snap.
Therapist: Do you not care about the outcomes?
Meng: It is more that I don't care, because I can stop myself. If I were to let myself go on everything I can feel on the moment itself, I would definitly be behind the bars right now. Mindless rampage isn't my cup of tea, that is all.
Therapist: Does your low emotionality and lack of conscience not make it easier to control yourself?
Meng: No, without emotionality, I am forced to think about the pros and cons, and make a decision based on that. I am not grounded by my emotions, but I constantly need to put a halt to things that are not practical or the consequences are too much. Aster is sometimes the answer to emotional issues I do not fully grasp as she is the opposite of me on that end.
Therapist: I think that lack of grounding of emotions forces you to cognitively think—to rationally think about everything. And so if you have to consider the pros and cons to stay out of trouble, and do that which makes sense all things considered, then everything is calculated because everything is measured against each other in terms of benefits and consequences. So a highly intelligent psychopath is more likely to make more rational and more informed decisions. A lower intelligent psychopath would make fewer and less thorough considerations, and then act quite impulsively. So the high IQ psychopath would make better considerations and therefore put more stops. I think that with a psychopath, it starts with “I want this", and then considerations are made. When a lower functioning psychopath there is this thought, “I want this" and then a proceeding to go get it, without the insight about the consequences.
Meng: I wouldn't simplify it that way. Sometimes I can get impulsive and proceed to get it without much thought but I do not get caught. It is more like a predator mind. You have the experienced ones and inexperienced others. It does not come with being more or less impulsive but more with a better understanding of your environement and the situation itself.
Therapist: Hmm, and so would you consider yourself to be low- or high-functioning?
Meng: I don't know, and I really don't care. I am whatever suits the situation. I can be whichever. I am quite good at adapting, however I am not sure whether or not that is the case for other psychopaths, so it is hard to say how I would be classified compared to other psychopaths. In addition I think 'low-functioning' is a damaging term. I think it's how much you are willing to be a version of what people think you should be. You can be highly intelligent and just want to do things your way. I do admit because of the role I want to play in the public eye I have to show some emotional understanding that were not easy to grasp at the begining and I have to adapt to my position. I can do it for so long but I think on the long run I will just get tired of it. There's only that much that I can take from people worshiping a mask. Though many dream of it, I do not want to just be a nice picture in a magazine for the rest of my life. I aim for greater purposes and will adapt my personality and behaviour according to my goal.
Therapist: So, tell me. What triggers violence in you?
Meng: As I said, I am not that impulsive. I can control that part of me really well. But worst case scenario, it’s just as simple as getting on my nerves, provoking me, or touching my belongings.
Therapist: Do you have any example?
Meng: I’m creative. I am patient. Contrary to the popular belief, psychopaths aren’t all impatient. I have a lot. It’s just that I am merciless and I have no remorse, bad feeling or fear to get caught because I am at peace with what I do and I am good at hiding things. The moment I take action, I don’t waste my time and I get it done fast and neat. No time for chit-chat.
Therapist: Have you killed someone before?
Meng: What do you think?
Therapist: Has anyone ever asked you this question before?
Meng: Not directly. People fear me. Some know I have a dark side but they don’t want to look at it because it scares them. So more likely they know something is up, but they don’t want to face it.
Therapist: Do you know why?
Meng: Because they can’t win. Because I have good reasons. Because I do it out of pragmatism and make sure it always works in my favour. That’s how people do in business, they take advantage of any situation to make it work out for them. Me taking action doesn’t come out of nowhere and it is always a response to something else. It’s not just me acting impulsively; someone or something triggered me.
Therapist: So what consequences do you think should occur to psychopaths who break the law?
Meng: That question doesn’t make any sense to me. The law is the law. If you kill and get caught, you get what you deserve based on all factors. But I guess for psychopaths they are just more dangerous in general. If the person goes around and keep killing people, just lock him up or kill him for all I care.
Therapist: So would it be fair to remove them from society and place them on say an island with each other?
Meng: That could be an interesting thing to do. But then you’d have to do that with all different personalities. Psychopaths aren’t worse than autistics, depressives, narcissists or whatever that has a different label than ‘normal’. No one can say for sure what society would look like if it was only filled with the same type of personality. Because we still share different type of intelligence and priorities. Common belief is to think all psychopaths want the same thing when we don’t. The simple fact some are smarter than the others proves it cannot be peaceful.
Therapist: But you wouldn’t have to mask if all of you were in the same place.
Meng: I don’t mind masking. I am used to it. If I do it it’s because I am okay with it and there are pros compensating the cons. It would be lost if I were with other psychopaths, though I don’t believe that would stop us from masking completely. We are, after all, highly manipulative, right?
Therapist: Can you describe what makes a good friend for you?
Meng: Useful. Resourceful.
Therapist: Do you have any good friend?
Meng: Actually I don’t believe the term ‘good’ is appropriate. I have friends or I don’t. They are useful or they are not.
Therapist: Someone close to Aster disappeared some years ago and we mentioned he was your friend. Can you tell me more about him?
Meng: He was useful. He had a lot of information for me and was a bridge with a community I do not belong to. But this is also what caused his downfall.
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